Re: [-empyre-] metaphor

Alan Sondheim <sondheim@panix.com> · Sun, 23 Nov 2003 20:48:49 -0500 (EST)

There is no resolution really; I take a more or less neo-platonic position
(Godel also had this) - for me, for example, infinitesimals are 'real.'
And I see this inextricably tied into the fabric of being and the
universe. The fact that fundamental particles' attributes can be literally
exhausted by mathesis amazes me and points to the fabric itself.

There are numerous logics and mathematics, but they're all fundamnetally
related. And (again for me of course) the reason that technology and
science are not 'simply' one of a number of ideologies - why they're what
I call _that_ description - is related to their ties with the fabric.

Beyond this, it all gets incredibly complicated of course, one way or
another - Alan

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Joel Weishaus wrote:

> Here's where we disagree. You think mathematics is a given, and I think it's
> a human invention. Maybe someone knows how to resolve this.
>
> -Joel
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Sondheim" <sondheim@panix.com>
> To: "soft_skinned_space" <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] metaphor
>
>
> >
> >
> > Well, not really I think. The outcome is always changed along predictable
> > lines - it's not random. It's qualitative and bounded at least within
> > fuzzy set theory, probabilities, etc. Heisenberg's tricky that way -
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Joel Weishaus wrote:
> >
> > > This is the scientific model: we're discovering what's already there.
> But if
> > > our observations, our measurements, also change the outcome, as quantum
> > > mechanics tells us, isn't there an irony here? We're discovering what
> we're
> > > creating!
> > >
> > > -Joel
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Alan Sondheim" <sondheim@panix.com>
> > > To: "soft_skinned_space" <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 9:25 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] metaphor
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I tend to believe that mathematics was discovered, not invented - and
> > > > within this lies, literally, all the difference in the world. - Alan
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Joel Weishaus wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Scientific models work to describe the world for which science is
> > > equipped
> > > > > to find. The moment mathematics was invented it set this course. But
> > > there
> > > > > may be worlds that science has not adapted to recognize. After all,
> > > science
> > > > > was evolved by the brain, and the brain evolved in order to allow
> our
> > > > > species to survive. Science, and its proactive partner, technology,
> has
> > > more
> > > > > to do with survivability than the possible spectrum of reality.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the other hand, art is not about _how_ to survive, but the
> _reason_
> > > to
> > > > > survive. Thus, in countries that practice institutional violence,
> like
> > > the
> > > > > present US Government, science is well-funded, while art is
> something
> > > extra.
> > > > >
> > > > >  -Joel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Jim Andrews" <jim@vispo.com>
> > > > > To: "Soft_Skinned_Space" <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 2:16 PM
> > > > > Subject: [-empyre-] metaphor
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > It's interesting to think of the role of 'superstition' in science
> > > over
> > > > > the
> > > > > > years and how that has continually been regarded with a dubious
> eye.
> > > Some
> > > > > > would think it is no longer present in scientific discourse, but
> talk
> > > > > about
> > > > > > such relatively mysterious realms as quantum mechanics is, at
> least in
> > > the
> > > > > > popular literature, full of references to shamanism and
> consciousness
> > > as a
> > > > > > 'force' that acts upon things. The more scientific training it
> takes
> > > to
> > > > > > actually understand the science, the more open it becomes to
> popular
> > > > > > misconception. Literary science? Science fiction or science email?
> > > Also,
> > > > > > fallacious 'proofs' (Penrose) that humans can do things like solve
> the
> > > > > > halting problem are published and become best sellers. We live in
> a
> > > > > magical
> > > > > > time, do we not? Giordano Bruno's time has nothing over on ours,
> in
> > > this
> > > > > > regard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The alchemy of poetry and art is, at least in part, in the way
> that it
> > > > > > operates metaphorically in such a way as to make it profoundly
> > > resonant
> > > > > with
> > > > > > the inner world. Its truth is of a different kind than the truth
> > > sought by
> > > > > > science. Are the propositions of science, couched within
> mathematical
> > > > > > abstractions, essentially metaphorical in that they are directly
> about
> > > the
> > > > > > abstract models and only indirectly about 'a way the world is', or
> are
> > > the
> > > > > > mathematical models in some fundamental correspondence with 'the
> way
> > > > > things
> > > > > > are'? We can amass experimental evidence to the point that, for
> > > instance,
> > > > > > the existence of the atom, as described in the mathematical
> models,
> > > can
> > > > > > hardly be contested, yet our conceptions about it are necessarily
> > > models,
> > > > > > metaphors. So perhaps our understanding is necessarily
> metaphorical in
> > > its
> > > > > > operations and there will always be this diffusion of superstition
> > > through
> > > > > > science, which nonetheless seeks some objectivity from the vaguely
> > > > > personal.
> > > > > > To imbue stones with consciousness, to postulate an animistic
> > > universe, is
> > > > > > quite resonant with the inner world, isn't it. Whether it is a
> > > hypothesis
> > > > > > that is of any use in science is another matter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is probably like the question of how many angels can dance on
> the
> > > head
> > > > > of
> > > > > > a pin. That is my feeling, also, about the question of free will
> vs
> > > > > > determinism. The question of how many angels can dance on the head
> of
> > > a
> > > > > pin
> > > > > > involves assumptions that are not required in science (angels) and
> the
> > > > > > 'answer' is inconsequential to science. The question of free will
> > > versus
> > > > > > determinism, in popular thinking, often involves the assumption
> that
> > > an
> > > > > > algorithmic model of how thought operates limits thought in ways
> that
> > > > > cannot
> > > > > > be demonstrated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ja
> > > > > > http://vispo.com/animisms (kinetic poetry with soul)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > empyre forum
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> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
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> > >
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> > >
> >
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>
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